Every week as SmallBizLady, I conduct interviews with experts on my Twitter talk show #SmallBizChat. The show takes place every Wednesday on Twitter from 8-9pm ET.  This is a special holiday interview with Bob Burg.  I loved his new book, Its Not All About You and I wanted to share it with all my loyal readers. Bob shares information on topics vital to the success of today’s businessperson. He speaks for corporations and associations internationally, including fortune 500 companies, franchises, and numerous direct sales organizations.  He is the author of the popular book The Go-Giver. He and co-author John David Mann wrote their newest book, entitled It’s Not About You, another business parable focusing on influence and leadership.  http://www.burg.com/

Smallbizlady: What’s the basic premise of It’s Not About You?

Bob Burg: That to the degree you focus on building, benefitting, and adding value to others (your team, employees, organization, social-media connections, etc.), that is the degree to which you, and your bottom line will increase. You benefit yourself by benefiting those around you. Of course, this must be done in a way that is authentic and genuine; not manipulative.

Smallbizlady: That sounds good in theory. but, in the real world, can you really thrive if you don’t care about yourself?

Bob Burg: Actually, this should not be confused with not “caring” about yourself or not being “interested” in yourself. As human beings, we are indeed self-interested creatures. Good thing, too! Without this trait, we would not advance, either as individuals or as a society. The key then is not interest, but “focus.” Turn your focus off of yourself and onto others and great things will happen! Not for some “way out” reasons but for very solid, practical reasons. Remember that, as Ernesto tells the protege, Joe, in our previous book, “The Go-Giver”…”all things being equal, people will do business with, and refer business to, those people they know, like and trust.” And, the quickest, most powerful and most effective way to elicit those feelings toward you in others is to temporarily suspend your self-interest and focus on providing value to them.

Smallbizlady: In the new book, you talk a lot about character, and compare that with competence in terms of market value. Why do you do that?

Bob Burg: Character comes from an old Greek word meaning scrape or scratch. It came to mean an engraved mark and, eventually, a defining quality. I think that’s a good definition. Actually, the sum of all one’s qualities make up their defining quality, and that really dictates everything.  While Competence and Character are both very important, competence is simply the baseline; that which allows you into the game. Character, on the other hand, is harder to come by. In his excellent book, “What Got You Here Won’t Get You There” Dr. Marshall Goldsmith discusses the fact that as people climb further and further up the corporate ladder, the competence/talent level is pretty similar. Character is becomes the separator. I believe that’s true not only in corporate business but in any business; in any area where people desire to influence. As we say in the book, “Character is that rare, precious gem, and anyone who possesses it is worth a great deal to the world around them.” In other words, because character is in such short supply and with great demand for it, it has far more market value.

Smallbizlady: How does this play out? What is one quality of character in particular?

Bob Burg: People with character truly “stand for something.” That alone provides them with a huge amount of influence. An excellent example of this is John Allison, the former CEO of BB&T (Branch Banking and Trust Company). He grew one of the most profitable banks in the country as well as one of the few that never involved themselves in sub-prime loans; only writing conventional mortgage. He knew that what the politicians and many of the other bankers were doing was wrong, and refused to go for the “easy money” when it went against his value-based principles. The result was that not only was his bank left standing profitably in the middle of the meltdown, but he was hugely respected, as well.

Smallbizlady: In the business world in general; certainly in social media we talk about “influence” a lot, but what is it, really?

Bob Burg: Influence is *pull*…not *push.” This is most likely why you rarely hear, “Wow that person is so influential; he or she has a lot of *push*! Joking aside, influencers are those who understand that the substance of influence is pull; gentle pull. This is a form of “power” as opposed to “force.” Force involves control, manipulation, intimidation and compliance. It is often a function of “positional leadership” rather than true, influence-based leadership. Let’s face it, even a positional leader can cause those in their employ to take a certain action. That is “compliance.” The challenge is that, at best, the person will perform exactly what he is asked and no more. At worst, they will sabotage the process. On the other hand, when there is “buy-in” that person is committed to the process and to its success. This is why our good friend, Leadership Consultant, Dondi Scumaci (www.DondiScumaci.com) says, “Compliance will never take you where commitment can go.”

Smallbizlady: One concept you discuss in the book – in fact – in most of your books, is “Empathy.” Why is that?

Bob Burg: Not only is empathy a vitally important part of the influence and selling process; it is also a vitally important part of the *human* process. This is true whether trying to understand why someone is resistant to our viewpoint or if we are simply attempting to help them through an issue or difficult time. I believe that in any relationship – business or personal –  empathy is another key differentiator between the successful and the unsuccessful person. Those who have the talent and skill; both at having empathy and being able to *communicate* empathy are at a huge advantage over those who don’t. Empathy can be defined as the as “the identification with the feelings of another person. Being a simple person, I just say it is really nothing more than – as the saying goes – putting yourself in the other person’s shoes. If we have similarities in experience, we might actually be able to really identify; to know what and/or how they are feeling. But, what if that is not the case? Let’s face it; there are times when not only do we not know exactly how they feel…we have absolutely *no idea* how they feel! Yet, we can still be empathetic. You see, empathy doesn’t necessarily mean you actually feel what the other person feels. The truth is, you might not. It *does* mean you communicate that you understand they are feeling … something. When someone with true empathy listens…the other person feels truly heard. And feeling heard is what often makes the difference.

Smallbizlady: What about “Tact” which you seem to place a high value on. Is that part of empathy?

Bob Burg: Well, I certainly think that people who are empathetic employ tact. However, tact is really a concept that can – and I believe should – be utilized by anyone who wants to be more effective both personally and professionally and who wants to help to bring out the best in others. My Dad defines Tact as “the language of strength.” I think that really encompasses the entire concept. Tact is a way of correcting, critiquing, teaching…and in such a way that not only is the person not defensive about what they are hearing, but they embrace it. And, they embrace you. Tact, like any other great principle, must be used in a genuine way, not manipulative.

Smallbizlady: So, a person who can utilize tact but does it will ill-intent can really cause some damage then?

Bob Burg: There’s probably nothing more dangerous than a bad person with good people skills. And, when I use the word “bad” I realize that’s a bit politically incorrect when it comes to the personal development genre; what I mean is someone with truly ill-intent. When a person like that has good people skills, they are downright dangerous. It’s also the difference between manipulation and persuasion.

Smallbizlady: That brings up another point. What actually *is* the difference between persuasion and manipulation. Aren’t they the same thing?

Bob Burg: The big difference is intent. I think that yes, the principles are similar; often even the same. In actuality, however, the results are as different as night and day. Again, the big difference intent.

Smallbizlady: In The Go-Giver you discuss the Law of Value, which says, “Your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment.” Certainly, you don’t mean not making a profit, do you?

Bob Burg: Actually, if a person taps into this Law correctly, they’ll make a very substantial profit and have a hugely thankful customer. The key is understanding the difference between  ”price” and “value.” Price is a dollar amount; a dollar figure. Value, on the other hand, is the relative worth or desirability of a thing to the end user. In other words, what is it about this “thing” (product, service, concept, idea, etc.) that brings with it so much worth; so much value, that someone will very willingly exchange their money for it, and be ecstatic that they did? Here’s an example. Let’s say an accountant charges you $2000 to do your taxes. That’s his fee, or price. But, he saves you over $6000 in taxes. he also provides you with the security and peace of mind of knowing it was done correctly. He has given you more in value (both in concrete value – the $6000, and conceptual value – the peace of mine) than he took in payment. So, I’d imagine that you feel great about it, and he made a significant profit, which he should for providing you so much in value compared to the price he charged. That is the essence of the Free Enterprise System, by the way; both the buyer and seller come away better off than before the transaction.

Smallbizlady: Let’s go back to the process of persuasion. You’ve talked about something called “The Law of The Out.” What is that?

Bob Burg: The Law of the Out is one of the most effective ways to make a person comfortable with you and the process, and leaving them in complete control of the decision so that – if the decision is the right one for them to make – they will. “The Law of the Out says: the bigger the out (or backdoor) you give someone to take…the less they’ll feel the need to take it.” In other words, when someone feels no pressure, they are much more apt to make the right decision. Understand, you are not giving them the “out” or “backdoor” in order for them to take it. But, rather that they feel comfortable enough to *not feel the need to take it.* Of course, if they feel it is in their best interest to take that out, they will. But, they would have anyway. Or, had they instead capitulated to your demands because they felt pressured to do so, they would have then had to either go back on their word or perhaps they would have sabotaged the process. Let it be their decision and – if they make the decision to proceed – they will feel good about it because it was their decision, not yours. And, the best way you can can increase the odds of this happening is to make the option for them *not* to do it, very clear.

Smallbizlady: Any final thoughts that an influencer should keep in mind when trying to persuade or encourage others?

Bob Burg: In a sense, it goes back to, above all, keeping in mind that – when it comes right down to motivating others to take action, it isn’t about you; it’s about them. It’s about them, and what *they* see as a benefit to their taking that particular action. In teaching selling, we often relate the old saying that each and every year, millions of 1⁄4-inch drill bits are sold, yet nobody buying any one of these 1⁄4-inch drill bits actually wants a 1⁄4-inch drill bit. Then, why do they buy them? Because they want a 1⁄4-inch hole! What does this have to do with influence and persuasion? People do things/buy things, not for the thing itself, but for the benefit that doing/buying the thing brings them. What makes this challenging is that those reasons are not always obvious. And, without knowing what they are, the chances of their taking the desired action are considerably lower. The key is to find out by asking the right questions. Asking the right questions, and then listening. Really listening!  

If you found this interview helpful, join us on Wednesdays 8-9pm ET follow @SmallBizChat on Twitter. Here’s how to participate in #SmallBizChat: http://bit.ly/S797e

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Melinda F. Emerson, known to many as SmallBizLady is one of America’s leading small business experts. As a seasoned entrepreneur, professional speaker, and small business coach, she develops audio, video and written content to fulfill her mission to end small business failure. As CEO of Quintessence Multimedia, Melinda educates entrepreneurs and Fortune 500 companies on subjects including small business start-up, business development and social media marketing. Forbes Magazine named her #1 woman for entrepreneurs to follow on Twitter. She hosts #SmallBizChat Wednesdays on Twitter 8-9pm ET for emerging entrepreneurs. She also publishes a resource blog http://www.succeedasyourownboss.comMelinda is also bestseller author of Become Your Own Boss in 12 months; A Month-by-Month Guide to a Business That Works.